Episode 10- Dan

Dan shares his profound journey through grief after losing his son Gunnar, the impact on his mental health, and how he found gratitude and purpose through support, connection, and new life. This episode offers valuable insights into navigating grief, mental health, and the importance of support networks.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Hey everyone, welcome back to Grief and Gratitude Podcast. And I'm going to hand it over to Crystal to introduce him.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Thank you, Mandy. We are here today with uh Dan, who we have some mutual friends, knows some of my family. He had seen leave info on the podcast and had reached out to us and shared that he'd be willing to share his story. So, Dan, I'm gonna hand it over to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Awesome, uh Crystal and Amanda. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Uh thank you so much for having me here. It's definitely something that I could not have done, you know, five years ago, six years ago, but certainly feel like um now this is it's a great part of you know my growth and being able to share my story and just hoping that it could impact somebody, help somebody. Uh you know, that means a lot to me. So I'll start. Uh sort of made a little timeline. My son was born Gunner in 2014, and we were living in Westford, Vermont. I had been actually working at an alternative high school for seven years in my early 20s. And my ex, my now ex, my wife at the time, Leah, we both decided, you know, that I was gonna start my own business. And uh I was extremely grateful for that experience. But Gunner was now, you know, 16. He was, you know, 18 months, and my ex had some migraines, and the flexibility seemed like it was a better fit for our family, you know. So in the summer of 2000, we were coming on to, you know, the vaccination stages. We were actually a little late for his 16 month MMR. And we were a little hesitant, um, you know, and unsure, but we figured we'd just follow the program. Um and in in July, uh around the I think his appointment was on the 13th or 14th, um, Gunnar did receive uh his MMR. And I, you know, from the the next day on, which would have been July uh 14th, 15th, the day before his passing, he became very ill. It's hard for me, it's hard for me to remember all the little things, and I think that that's just was sort of my defense mechanism to keep that. But um, I remember he had a he had a runny nose and he was he had a lot of cold symptoms and nothing nothing crazy. And then Leah and I were sitting on the couch, and he went into this sort of benign seizure like episode. And I remember we remember we called his pediatrician immediately. Um, and and now this was July 15th, um, the day before his passing. And um, you know, they they basically said all the same things, you know, uh a doctor would say, uh, you know, on call. Has he been eating? How's his how's his behavior? Is he drinking? You know, Lee and I weren't even sure what we saw, you know, because when kids obviously get fatigued and tired, they, you know, can act, they could they're sleepy, right? They'll they'll nap. And but there was uh it was definitely very worrisome to us. And so we did what the doctor, you know, said. He said, you know, put him to bed just just like you you normally would, and you know, he's he'll be fine. And so we we did that and um we put him to bed and you know, at that we weren't we weren't co-sleeping, we weren't co-sleeping parents. We were Leah did a really good job with the sleep training and he was in his own crib, you know. So we went to bed and you know, woke up in the morning, and I remember um being like, it was probably like 7 30, and he was uh he was an early riser. And I remember being like, wow, we've never been able to have coffee together, you know. And I remember that we had coffee that morning, um, and we were just thinking, you know, we were watching him on the monitor, and he was face down, and we were, you know, just I was like, I'm gonna go outside, and he's probably just tired, right? He's a sick kid that they might sleep in. And I uh I remember going outside and then I um, you know, I I'll know I try not to think about this much, but I I'll never, you know, forget Leah coming out and just you know, extremely distraught. And you know, we called 911 and they came. And you know, there was there at that point, he was he was it had likely been in the middle of the night. So I don't even remember how I got to the hospital, you know. I know Leah went with the ambulance. I feel like I went behind. So I want to talk about a little bit about you know the classification of of death for my son, because a lot of people don't even know about this classification of death, and a lot of people will mix it up with SIDS, and SIDS is for you know children's zero to 12 months, and it's related to suffocation. Um, my son did not suffocate. Um, he was a perfectly freakishly strong, no, almost two-year-old. He was 20, he was 20 months at this point. Um, he was freakishly strong uh little guy, and you know, he uh the the sudden unexplained death in children, S U D C, which I am part of that group, is is really two years, I believe, to like 20 years old, and it's unexplained, right? So you go through the autopsy process and that sort of thing, and uh his autopsy is perfect. You know, it's a really hard thing. I still struggle with this because it's it's a really hard thing to understand that this day and age, you know, his autopsy would be perfect. And we had all the genetic testing and everything you could imagine, um, you know, and uh yeah, that's that was the cause of death. So obviously, as a parent, given what we had seen after the vaccinations, you know, and I know this is a very controversial topic, and I I'm a very I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but I also because I do respect everyone's decision and understand, you know, that 99.9% of the time, kids are gonna be fine following the program, right? But their medicine is not one size fits all. And, you know, I do feel like for whatever reason with his genetic makeup, you know, there was something that triggered a febral seizure or something, and then it, you know, he his body couldn't respond. So that's really hard. And I go back and forth from like it's really hard, but also makes it feel more special, if that makes sense. Like, like he was just on this earth, you know, for that the short period of time, like just as a gift, you know, and he was actually maybe my daughter, you know, or my daughter is now him, or I don't know. It's you know, he was a higher power and fulfilled his time here as a gift. And um we're we're lucky that we had that time, you know. Did I feel that way year one, two, and three? Absolutely not. I was angry, I was pissed, I was I was not a happy person, you know, and it it it took me like probably four years to get to that point of gratitude, you know. Um, and ultimately it was, you know, having my daughter, and we'll and I'll talk about that. Um, but do you guys have any questions about that part of it up to this point?

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Um, I was just gonna ask, it must have been really hard to maintain your relationship with your wife after going through um such a tragedy.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah, I mean, we're n we're you know, we're now divorced. So the the the trauma and the you know the the grief, I mean it it changed us both. I'd say we we just took we took different paths, you know. So back to that day, I mean we never went we went back to the house once, the Westford house. My parents had given me some land. I built a uh you know a beautiful house. We felt like that was the right thing for us to do. Ultimately, it was it was you never know what the right thing to do is when you're in that grief brain, it's like you just you know you're feeling like okay, well, it's a win if I get out of bed in the morning. Um, you know, and but we did go back, and I one of my memories is I I remember I I remember Leah just, you know, in his crib for like three, four hours, right? It was it was hard, it was hard. And uh we never stayed there, you know. We we gathered some things and I he loved his fish. I had a pond. Um and he loved he called them fuss, fuffs, and this pond was not nice, it was just disgusting, right? But I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm like in there, like, you know, up my waist, like trying to catch every fish I could. And you know, one of my best friends back home, you know, was like, we're getting those fish and we're gonna put them in a new pond. That was pretty cool. Um, you know, there's the uh yeah, the relationship, you know, I was I was angry and not approachable for years. And you know, Leah cried. You know, we I took I took maybe five months off work. Um my great great buddies, Jason LaFave, um he set up a GoFundMe we sold our house. You know, we were on one income. I was, you know, a teacher salary, you know, just start my business. It wasn't like we were, you know, I was we were, you know, Richard. Um so that we're you know, one of the things about being when I look back when you're when you're just feeling that thick grief, um, it's hard to say thank you. And I I don't know if I ever really took the time to say thank you to people. So I I want to take that time. You know, I mean, I'm so grateful for just all the help and everybody. It was tons and tons of people. Um we, you know, the funeral, I I don't it, you know, I never I don't really remember it. You know, you you don't ever have to think about, you don't ever plan to do this type of stuff, right? Are you gonna cremate your kid? Are you gonna, you know, are you gonna are you gonna bury him? Are you gonna, you know, what is he gonna wear at the day of the funeral? And what are, you know, are you gonna do open casket and are you gonna do there's just so much, but one of the things that I took from my my experience, and I don't know um if any folks have ever heard of tapping, but I remember just being in a straight panic. And I did speak at the funeral, Leah and I did, and Bessel Vanderkolk, he's I think he's Dutch, he does a thing on tapping, and it was something I had had some trainings with him with like secondary trauma and developmental trauma. I remember like tapping through that whole funeral, like and it got it through it, uh, you know, and that was that was extremely difficult. But just back to the thank you thing, like I think, you know, when you're in that sort of grief for years, which I was, it was it's hard to feel like feel it's hard like it's hard to say thank you. You know, it's I was very closed off and I I felt like everything was probably owed to me, and you know, I had this experience that was just I couldn't I couldn't appreciate an experience that changed you.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yeah, it changed you, you weren't the same person anymore.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, I was I was not the same person, and it was uh I'm not proud of that that person, but at the same time, I did do many things that I am proud of. And I'm gonna talk about, you know, I made some really big decisions, you know. I I didn't drink for seven years, you know, and that was that was a decision that I made that I was like, I need to feel the feelings, I'm not gonna mask the feelings, I have a family to take care of, and you know, that is definitely not the road I'm gonna go down. And I I feel very grateful that I that I took that path because I don't know if I would be where I am today if I did that. So at that time, I took a behavior specialist position in St. Johnsbury, and you know, I was I had to work, I think five or six months went by. Leah and I were care, we were living with my parents, and that was just like there was too much grief under one roof. It was like my mom who, you know, obviously lost her grandson, and then like you know, her feeling like they would she would still have to take care of us and seeing how she almost lost me, right? As a person, like she, I'm a different person now, and her her daughter-in-law, um, everyone, it's just it was too much. So I I care we caretake this property. I was starting to build the house, I was working as a behavior specialist with like 80 kids on my caseload, and I was still like not okay, right? Like, not okay. Um, and you know, the family relationships just changed so much. And I, you know, I could, I could just feel when people got around me that I was like, they were they were unsure how to approach me, you know, because I was just I was just I was unapproachable, you know, and uh was just so hurt and angry. I was just you know, I could I could go out and build a stone wall for like 60 hours straight and just punish my body and scream and cry and just like you know, and that's sort of how I dealt with it. And I didn't really want to like process a lot of questions or have people, I guess, worry about me, but it probably made them worry, you know, more, you know. So I I think also another part of my perception of people, and you know, people start giving you advice, and after like a couple of months, they start to give you advice. You should see a therapist, you should do this, you should do that. And I I think one of the most important things about helping somebody in grief is supporting them and knowing the difference between support and advice. You know, it's it's really hard to take advice, you're really just trying to survive, you know, and there's such a difference there. And I struggled with, you know, it's I struggled with with like seeing the good intent behind what people were trying to do. So I was at St. J. Middle School, and you know, I think that was a step in my healing journey. I mean, while you really shouldn't take care of other people while you're sort of beat down, I mean, there was such a sense of perspective there, just the stories that I saw day in and day out. I mean, there that is a very tough population there, and just a lot of a lot of drugs and a lot of uh sexual abuse and neglect. And I it really gave me a lot of perspective. Yeah. At the same time, we were my wife and I were talking about having a child and we were going through IBS, which was pretty stressful, but there was there was a gentleman there, Brian O'Farrell, who was I mean, just such a beautiful person. You know, Brian Brian was my person, you know, and he he had uh he was a guidance counselor of St.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

J's School, and you know, I I would just go in and you know, after working all day, would just go in, just just break it down, you know, for hours.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

You know, no matter what, he was he was always there and he offered so much insight and you know into my journey and and uh you know it was it was a it was a great experience, you know, and having those folks don't lean on that, you know, he had he had a significant loss in in his family, his brother, you know, and and he was just one of those my people for sure. And I think we all have those people on our journey, and you know, I've met others since then. Brian unfortunately passed after I moved back. He actually passed on my son's birthday, and I said I would never speak at a funeral again. And I spoke at Brian's funeral, and at his funeral, I met his his brother.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

His brother is definitely, you know, now one of my people. He one of the great people.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

And we always, you know, stay in touch and go grab lunch, and uh we don't see each other as as much as we want, but there's that connection for us with Brian and Gunnar. So you know, we had my wife and I shortly after we got we had the first time IBF got pregnant with Luna, and Luna was was born on the 13th of February 2018. And you know, I gotta say my my life definitely changed, you know. Again, I I felt that it was probably the first I felt like that pure joy, you know, uh being a father, you know, being a father and um just that love for your children. And so she's she's you know, she's now our our little moon being we call her our little moon being and she's eight and she's just yeah, she's she's definitely the best the best medicine there there is. Uh you know, having uh a child after losing a child, it definitely creates a different lens of life and and and how you approach parenting, and you know, we were scared, like we were, you know, Leah and I for I mean the first three years of our life probably. I mean, we took shifts and watched her like a hawk, you know, we we watched her. We we didn't put her in a crib, we didn't sleep. Yeah, we just we watched her, you know, we were so scared. And you know, Luna had we brought her to Boston's Children's Hospital and she had EGs and EKGs and genetic testing, and you know, they they didn't find any sort of link to to Gunner in in any way. Uh and I guess I don't know how really how you could because it's unknown, right? But you know, uh that was that was definitely exhausting, but what we had to do to feel like you know, Luna was gonna be safe and it wasn't gonna happen again. So that's that's really you know, that's really where things started to to take a take a turn for me. I mean, I I knew I don't know that I had smiled in in two years, you know. I I don't know that I did. And um having Luna was it was just that it fulfilled a monster hole, you know, it didn't go away and it was still pretty big, but it definitely filled a huge hole. So I think yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

I would imagine in some ways, right, it kept both you and your wife alive, the hope from the pregnancy to the birth to the doing, like it what is your lifeline?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

100%. Like, I don't know, like even now, like I don't she's my entire purpose, you know, and I don't I don't know if anything ever happened or I don't know. Like I don't know how I can get through, you know, like she is definitely keeping us alive, you know. You know, I think a lot there are many keys to my journey, and I I didn't do it perfectly, but I I did it definitely not perfectly, but I I did it my my own way, and and um, you know, I think I was very I'm very proud of you know my decision to to not drink. Um, you know, and I and I don't like I'm still not any of my friends would tell you I'm not a drinker. I'll have a glass of something nice now here and there, but like I've never really been a drinker, but I it was definitely something that I knew that I wouldn't be able to handle. Um, you know, I another thing is, you know, my the self-care has been huge for me. You know, I really try to prioritize sweating and hiking and being in nature, you know, sunshine. I mean, I I even like three years ago, I have I remember just putting on a backpack and I would play I Am Not Okay by Jelly Roll and I'd put like 40 pounds in my backpack, I would just walk up and down a hill and just and like crop flat and like like people probably saw me and thought it was crazy, but you know, just like physically grounding myself and like letting that out was so important, you know. Um I also just like connections, you know. I have some some of the best family and friends. I mean, there's just you know, people can, you know, people with hardship will sometimes connect themselves to, you know, drama and negativity. And I always just wanted to, you know, made sure that the people in my life were positive and we're gonna add something and we're, you know, just just solid people. That was really important. I mean, I have such a good, you know, such a good group, group of friends and family, and and it took me a long time. I mean, it took me. I think it was it was scary not just losing another kid, but also like getting like that sense of like almost like reactive attachment and losing other people was hard. And yeah, it took me four or five years. You know, it's been 10 since Gunnar. He was, you know, it's he was born in um 16. Yeah, it was no, sorry, 2014. Yeah, I mean, I I think about the people and some of the things we do. I mean, this hat right here, this is it's Collins Pines Gunners. And you know, when I was living caretaking that property, Ryan Gardner and some of my friends, like I hadn't left the house. And I was literally working trying to support my wife the best I could, which there's no textbook, you know. And uh they picked me up, and I at that point, you know, I think it was they picked me up in November after that summer, and we decided we were gonna go on a hunting trip, and really it was to get me out of the house. And this is what and we've done it 10 years straight, and it's evolved into like 10 of my friends, and it's all about you know, my son and all of us making sure we continue to, you know, honor him and and share those relationships and connections and positive experiences. And we all we're all we all love being in the woods, so it's it's pretty cool. But they picked me up, and that was one of the first times I'd done away from the house from Leah and I I just cried off. I cried all I couldn't even like I'm hunting, I'm doing the thing that I love the most. And I just I remember I they had to drag drag me out of the truck. I couldn't even like it was just crazy, and I you know, I couldn't even function, but it was like one of the first times that I was not sort of taking care, or it felt like my feelings were at that point, my grief was more at the forefront than it was in the house because you know, um it definitely hit Leah extremely hard.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

You could let it out because you you could let your grief out because you were staying strong for everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah, I mean, I I sort of always like pretended like I had it together, you know? Uh like because I had to work and I I had to I had to build the house and I had to do, you know, I had a lot of responsibilities to keep things. I just had to kind of fake until I made it. And then as soon as I left her for the for that week, I was just like, I it was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Dan, can you speak to, I mean, you're explaining stereotypical imposed manhood, right? So well in terms of what did you do? You thought I have to care for my family, and you've also on the other side of things talked about this amazing group of males you have that got you out to actually feel your feelings. Can you just talk a bit to um, I don't know if pressure's the word, but the how it was being in a home where you had to care for others' grief. I mean, I imagine it slowed down your ability to process it or potentially the anger lasted longer. Like, did you consciously think of that at all? Like, I need to get away.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

I felt I felt very guilty getting away. You know, I think that I got more resentful towards Leah as time went on, related to like, you know, we have to it was hard because I had expectations for myself. And we, as we know, people that grieve, they grieve very differently, and and their timeline is different, and they, you know, they process things just so differently. And my expectations for myself were different than her expectations for herself, and that created some friction because you know, I felt like maybe she should have been a further ahead. You know, looking back, I wish I could have been not grieving myself, so I could have supported her her differently. But as you two know, it's like you just you know, it's it's hard to make those really good executive decisions, you know, when you're in the thick of it. I don't know if I answered your question.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Um, you know, yeah, in part, I think uh I mean, the work I do, I'm a psychotherapist and I over 90% of my clients are male, right? And I think of ranging from you know early 20s to in their 60s. And I think generationally, younger generations are doing a bit better as males. But I'm I'm just wondering, kind of you experiencing it, what would you suggest? What could have been helpful to you? It sounds like that, you know, your group of friends did the right thing, but what what advice, if a male wanted, would you give regarding the need to care for yourself and to greet?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah, I I have another buddy, Jamie. Uh, we call him Jaime, you know, there would be the only other times that I really left the house when we were living over there, I would do that, dude. You uh I'm just not okay. He's like, I'll I'll come pick you up, we'll go for a ride, you know, and keeping things very simple. And that's why he was so great because there wasn't a lot of processing, but he'd like come pick me up and we'd go for a ride, and we just shoot the shit about the weather, and you know, keeping things very light, you know, and I never felt like any judgment or any advice, or it was just very like, you know, he would he would just you know, I he'd give me a hug, you know, or he'd put it or just he's so funny, like humor. He's hilarious, he's just such a funny guy, and and I think about how much that meant to me, you know, and um, yeah, it was just simple humor, you know, keeping things present, talking about what was going on, you know, oh look at the you know, how's yeah, the weather and and simple things like that.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Um, but yeah, I think yeah, I think that's uh that's amazing advice. And I mean, I learned some years ago, which I think is very true, you know, when within a therapeutic setting is to ask, would you like advice? Could I provide you a suggestion? How can I be helpful to you? Right? Because someone coming into your space and going for the advice, even if it is well intended, it is it might not at all be helpful, right? And to ask that question. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Well, and I liked when you said earlier you would want support, not advice. You wanted support, you didn't want the advice.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

No, I couldn't handle that. That was hard. That was hard. And you know, so I connecting with people that was so important and so grateful for all those people and family. And it and I was difficult, you know. I was like I said, I was I was difficult. I was not okay. I was I mean, you wouldn't want to hang around me. I wasn't, you know, it was like talking stone, you know, and and then and then my my folks along the way that have had grief journeys, you know, that's been really important for me because I tend to, even you know, the past five years, I I feel so much different, you know, so much happier and healthier. But I know I'll feel it, like I have to let it out. Like this why I this talk has been great, but also like connecting with those people like Liam Liam and and uh Tom Lovett, who was you know, St. J. Academy, he was a headmaster and uh also lost a child, and he, you know, he ran my son's funeral and just a brilliant guy. And you know, those are the folks that when I see him, I'm like, I'm in tears. Right, but I need to like I need I like need it or you know, uh yeah, it's it's so you know, I've also been so I've talked about the decision to not drink, nature, um, my connections, you know, um projects. I I really like to stay busy physically, um, um, that sort of thing. Helping others is is always been a passion of mine, and and you know, I I still continue to help folks and I I still work directly with a client, you know, and and I have I'm constantly reminded of, you know, I was a grown man and I had this trauma to my brain, which, you know, it's definitely impacted me. And uh I was gonna talk about that a little bit, but I wasn't my brain wasn't still developing, you know, and I feel for those folks that the kids, the the trauma at that at such a young age when I can't even imagine. I just I can't even imagine dealing with something when your brain is ful still developing and and how that really would it impacts you, right? Your social emotional, your your skills, you know, and your ability to have relation healthy relationships and coping. And so I'm I'm just so grateful, you know, and when I'm giving back to people and helping them um in difficult situations because again, it's helped me, you know, and that's something that I always just want to do because you know, and people talk to me about my experience, and they'll always minimize their own experience and their own trauma because they'll they'll try to quantify my experience is so much more impactful. And I'm like, no, no, no, like perception is real, like don't don't minimize like I I don't like when people do that because as we know, like a car crash is traumatic, and that could be more significant to them than than my loss. I mean, maybe that's not a good comparison, but um, does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah, I think you're making very valuable points on pointing out the brain development and having empathy and consideration for someone who is younger with a developing brain because those memories, right? It's a snapshot, it it remains in their brain and may forever affect, right, how they're able to learn new things.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Or not.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Or not. Correct. Correct. And what was the second point you said after?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Just like people minimi would always exactly, yeah. The mi They would compare their trauma to mine, yes, and they would try to minimize their own experience. And I would, I would it would always make me feel so bad. I know perception is reality, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:09

And like I just I I always, you know, yeah, what I it speaks to the fact that you're a very naturally empathic human being, right? I imagine you work a lot off of feelings, you have gut feelings, right, regularly that are probably accurate, but you're absolutely right. Like experience is is is relative and is that person's lived experience. So to compare or to minimize, right, is taking them outside of their pain. And you want to make sure people get to feel the their full weight of pain.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Yes, absolutely. You know, and I so I think one of the last things that I I did a lot as part of my journey, and it was just like basic brain science, you know, your thoughts dictate your feelings and your feelings dictate your behavior. Like I constantly was uh retraining my my self-talk and my my perspective and and really around I am frigging lucky. I am frigging lucky.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

I am I am so grateful that I had my son for those those two years than never at all, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Like I there's so I can think of like a hundred different things that I would I would just you know self-talk, you know, to get me through like you, you know, it's pretty easy, right? It's pretty easy for folks to fall into that victim mentality, right? And and sort of go into that the pity party, and like that is never what I, you know, and I am so grateful, you know, I am so fortunate, I am so lucky, you know, that I have so many things, so many connections, so many amazing friends. Like I'm so grateful. And it's easy to, you know, when you're having a bad day or you know, you have those thoughts, right? To think, you know, to quickly go sell. And I had to really teach myself, you know, and sort of just change my thought process. Um, you know, and for the most part, I I do really well with it.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Um, I was just wondering, and I don't know if you have an answer for this, but was there something that you said you were just angry for so long, for so many years? Was there something that just like clicked for you, or what helped you um turn your grief into gratitude?

SPEAKER_01 35:27

I thought you were gonna ask what's specifically why I was like angry, but it's I mean, honestly, the birth of my daughter was like the planting of the seed, you know what I mean? It was like the day that I knew, you know, I finally just started feeling so much different and that purpose of being a father, which I always wanted to be. You know, I I was so angry because I felt like that was robbed from me, you know.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Do you see pieces of gunner in your daughter Luna?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

All the time. And I was so I'm gonna I was gonna talk a little bit about like how I have changed, you know, the the Luna and I like well for the first two years, like I didn't really talk a lot about Gunner, you know, and it it was hard for me, you know, um, and now it's I wish I had more because I I've I've forgotten a lot, you know, I've forgotten a lot of the memories and I'm so grateful for the pictures and photos and like fuss. I hear the word, you know, when I said fuss earlier, you know, I I can still hear him talking once in you know in a while, like the way he would say birdie or you know, buggy, buggy. I always, whenever I say like or or good night, I can feel like he would say none night, you know, because I can hear it, he talks to me. The the parts that I kind of wanted to touch on were just how I've changed, you know, and that was part of it. It's just I'm so lucky, you know. I feel so lucky I had a gunner two years and never at all, you know. And that took me like that was probably like year four or five after his passing, and that I got to that point that I even considered saying that. You know what I mean? Like, and I truly that is, you know, I'm I see so much of my daughter in him, and you know, yes, I I had hard feeling about having a like when we found out we were having a girl, I I was like, I had a hard time with that, but at the same time, like now I think it's for the better that we had a a girl because I think we would have it would have been more difficult like comparing and Miss Matt and and um and um yeah. So the one of the things that really changed for me was the grateful piece. I mean, when Gunner was on this earth, I mean I was I was a worker and I missed I definitely was a great dad, but I I definitely missed moments, you know, as a sole provider. I I missed moments, work was a stress for me. I didn't, you know, I wouldn't prioritize and you know, you hear people say cherish every minute, right? I didn't cherish every that is definitely something I do now, you know, like yeah, you you know, when I have my daughter, it's not like I'm out doing yard work and she's inside. Like it's you you get my undivided attention. What are we gonna do to have an awesome day? And like, you know, it's yeah, it's it's changed me in that way. Like, and I'm very grateful for that because truly I I don't know uh, you know, parents say that, you know, but it's it's pretty easy to get in the the the pattern or rut of, you know, go get on your iPad or you know what I mean? Tiger. Sorry, hold on. So that that definitely for me, work is not a you know, work's important, but it's not it's something that I can shut off. And you know, if I you know I have my daughter 50% of the time, and you know, I'm I'm planning things well in advance for her to have every opportunity and privilege and experience. Um, and there's really nothing more important to me than that. Um I guess one of the other things that really changed was nothing is really a crisis to me anymore, you know, and uh, you know, e at work with you know, people, with relationships, with, you know, just day-to-day stuff. I mean, I don't I'm pretty flat line, you know, um, I'm a problem solver. I don't, you know, nothing, nothing is really a crisis, you know, and uh having that tragedy really puts things into perspective. And yeah, that's sort of what I how I look at things. You know, I I definitely get way more emotional, as you saw a little bit today, when I talk about it. I definitely cry a lot when I watch like silly happy movies. If I'm by myself, but I can't I can't watch like you know, uh I can't watch like a a Disney movie or like acute happiness without crying hysterically. I was never like that. Yeah, they get that gets me every time.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

So that's I would say that's great to the extent if you're if you're needing a good cry, you know, just throwing off throwing a Hallmark movie and Dan's gonna you're gonna get it out. Yeah, Hallmark movies. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

It's like the those happy, joyous moments at the end, every time. Every time. You know, and then one of the last things that's changed is that we talk about him all the time, you know, Gunner and and I would lunatz. It's great. I mean, he he loved rocks, you know. Everyone at the funeral brought rocks, and I made this, you know, sort of shrine out back, patio with all his rocks, and you know, every time we cross a brook or a pond, you know, he he was left-handed. You know, we throw a rock, you know, left-handed, and you know, just the sayings and and the words and and things, you know, we just try to honor him and and remember him and talk about him. Yeah, and and Luna's great. I mean, she's you know, it's it's yeah, it's great. So I mean, that's really all that I sort of have. I mean, I mean, obviously we've done things differently with Luna, um, and all's been good.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

And so you, if I can go back, just some struck me was when you mentioned Brian and then Brian passing on Gunner's birthday.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Crazy.

SPEAKER_03 41:17

Um, I was just curious, right? That makes me think of where we honor people who have passed and we love, but do we feel them or do we believe connections are what does that mean to you, right? Like, I mean, what is your belief, whether it be spiritual or what did that mean to you? And in general, do you yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

I mean, I can I just couldn't believe it. I felt I felt more, you know, there being some sort of higher power need for both of them, you know. I mean, Brian was just it in that they're together and they're it that like the fact that it was on his birthday and Brian was my person, you know, he was everybody's person. He I mean, he was, you know, 250 kids sort of mentor a a day in that school. Um there was while there was so much sadness around it, I there was also a little bit of relief, I guess. And now I'm just like connected to his brother and who just I would have never had him in my life. I mean, he lives over here in Chitton County, like we basically are neighbors, and we see each other often. And you know, it it's just yeah, it was wild how it how it all happened, and you know, it's there's definitely beauty in that, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:34

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

That's what absolutely, yeah. And I I told myself, I'm like, I'm never speaking in a funeral ever again. Obviously, that was end, and then I mean I there was no way I could not. Brian meant you know, he meant so much to me, and he knew he knew Gunner, and and he was just I mean, what he does for kids uh in this world and makes them feel safe. I mean, uh he was just yeah, confident. Just the type of person you would you would want attached to to my son for sure, you know. So no, that made me feel good.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Well, we're coming onto the hour, Mandy. I know this podcast too is very much for Declan. Just wondering if you had feelings that came up or additional questions with this shared loss.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

No, but I could relate to a lot of what you were saying, especially, and it was just like you quoted me. Um a few times he quoted it's like I'm so grateful that I had him for nine years, then not at all. And I would have I would go through all of it again to have those nine years, then nothing at all. And that I learned a lot from him. Um, he taught me a lot, still teaches me a lot.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Yeah, makes me want to be a better person, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

Yeah, and the daughter, your daughter, I have a little one that's younger than Declan, and he acts like Declan.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

And so it's it's kind of funny because Finn was two when Declan passed, so he didn't really know him well. But I talk about Declan all the time, just you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah, so it's normal.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah, and um, and he talks about Declan all the time now, too. So, like when we see a sunset, he'll say, Oh, Declan painted this guy for me tonight.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Aw.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Yeah, Luna calls her brother Angel. She'll tell her teachers or her friends, yeah, I have a brother, he's his name's Angel.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

But no, I definitely understand a lot of where you're coming from. And um I'm just happy for you that you have gratitude um after I know.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Yeah, I'm so glad as well. I mean it it took a long time. You know, it's been like ten years or and that that's one of the other things I really struggle with, like date. Like I just we just had his birthday in November, and like it's hard to and I uh that was actually one thing I was gonna talk about is my brain. My brain, I mean, I've lost so many memories of like I I can't remember a lot of like my college, high school memories. I definitely have to have a lot of spreadsheets and take notes or I forget things. So it's like just now I don't even know what we were just talking about. My brain is definitely way different than it than it used to be.

SPEAKER_03 45:27

It literally changes us, right? To go through that and to experience, you know, I think it's like grief and gratitude is a spectrum and also it is like science can be simultaneous, right? It can be sometimes inseparable. And I don't know that our brains are necessarily equipped until they experience, right? And then we have to adapt or not. And so, right, there's there's loss there, and and and then we adapt with the memory, with the spreadsheets and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

A lot of spreadsheets.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Write everything down.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

I want to thank you so much for reaching out to us and for coming on and for sharing your story. I really feel well, you're our first um man to come on our show too. And I think it's really important to a lot of things you shared, I think, can be beneficial to others, especially meals I know that wouldn't otherwise feel allowed to feel openly. So I'm very grateful.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

I'm open door. Anyone ever wants to, you know, contact me or go go grab dinner or or chat. I mean, I totally would I've always loved, not always, you know, I've definitely become able to love sort of that role, you know, as my time is, you know, more recent here. But open door, anyone ever want to contact me, that's definitely I'd like that.

SPEAKER_03 46:52

Amazing. Thank you, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Um, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

And if you know anybody that wants to share their story, if any of our listeners want to, they can message us on Facebook or Instagram at griefandgratitude podcast. And we have an email address, griefandgratitude gmail.com. So that's it for today. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Bye, girls.